After spending a couple of days back at PKR, playing the low level cash games as a break from Full Tilt, and I have to voice a concern about the shuffle. I just re-loaded and then withdrew my funds again after a few hours.

Now I am sure the RNG is sound and fair, I don't suspect any rigging. But I did notice stuff that I noticed many months ago and voiced my opinion on.

I am talking about the amazing number of straights and flushes that seem to hit there. And if one doesn't hit, the board certainly makes sure there is a draw.

Now according to Poker Office, I have played over 7,500 hands on Full Tilt now, and in all that time I have not seen anything like what I see on PKR in just a few hundred hands. My concern is that there may be an error in the shuffle procedure.

While playing there, I had holes cards that a vast majority of the time were connected (10-J, J-Q, 7-8 etc). If I called with them, there seemed to be a high chance I got a straight draw. It is very common to see a board of 7-8-9-10. And also it was very common to get 3 or 4 of the same suit. Many times last night, there were open ended straight draws and flush draw possibilities. Other players at the table were noticing the same thing.

Checking the hand history from one session, there were 127 hands played. In those hands, there were 12 'known' straights. By that, I mean straights that were shown. I know I had 2 or 3 that I didn't show in the hand history but I never show my hand if it isn't called so there may be others that weren't seen.

Flushes were similar, with 8 'known' ones. Again I had 2 or 3 that I didn't show.

Checking my Poker Office, in those 7,500+ hands, I have had only 40 straights and 31 flushes. These were in Sit and Go's. So I hit a straight about 0.5% of the time. That is significantly lower than the percentage on PKR. (I think I had 5 or 6 straights in 127 hands, around 4%-5%)

I have played only 475 hands of cash games on FT. In all those I have had 1 straight and 5 flushes, again significantly less than PKR.

Now I have no idea why any of this is. Like I said, it is something I noticed a long time ago and it did contribute to me stopping playing there. And going back brought it all back.

I also understand that 127 hands is hardly a good amount of hands, but the memories came flooding back.

I am not alone either in my thoughts. A few players I spoke to agreed that flushes and straights came out a lot. A few of them called any connectors because of it, playing the system.

The thing that concerns me is this, extract, taken from the PKR website:

So why use such HUGE numbers? There are only 52 cards, so why not assign them a number from 1 to 52? PokerStars just use number 1 to 52 to shuffle and they have no problems.

By my thinking, using such big numbers, it is quite easy to get sequential numbers. For instance, the 8c is numbered 2,000,000. Now even if the 9s is numbered 100,000,000, a huge gap, it could still easily be placed next to the 8c because of the size of the numbers involved.

Now it may all be in my imagination, but one thing I do know is that I noticed this many months ago, moved to Full Tilt and didn’t see anything like it in 7,500 hands and moving back to PKR I noticed it all over again. It’s hard to think its just coincidence.

If there is something wrong on PKR, I am 100% convinced it is unintentional. I don’t think for one minute that they would rig anything and I am well past the “online poker is rigged” stage. I personally do not like the shuffle system they use and it could be flawed, creating these scenarios. I can’t see me playing there seriously and it’s probably why so many players have left and despite the fact they say 1 million people have signed up, 7,000 seems to be the peak number.

Funny that - reminds me of my time on PKR - I'm certain I posted on here mentioning the amzing amounts of flushes. In fact it took me months after leaving to shake the conviction that any board with 2 suits would be giving a flush to someone on the turn or river. I remember asking here how likely it really is that someone has a flush when 3 suits are on the board as the fear was ruining my game.

In fact, I can count the number of flushes I've had on one hand in recent memory on other sites. Straights are far more common of course.

I'm gonna pop a few bucks in so I'll see :-)

I make a lot of money from flushes

The main reason I left PKR was because of the rediculous RNG (well, that and Victoria Dornan).

In around every 10 hands you're guaranteed to see a straight or a flush...and more often than not more than one person would have one.
Eventually it just went beyond stupid, and into the realms of being mathematically rediculous.
You can't play a 'real' game there, you just have to basically grab your balls and hope it's your day to win. It goes for both cash and tournaments.

What really bothered me though was that they claim their cards get shuffled TWICE, but from what I remember, they don't state what (pointlessely) shuffles the deck the second time around.
Hell, check my thread in the screenshots section. Pretty much all of them were taken in the space of one session. Three people FLOPPING flushes ffs...i've never seen that in the three years i've played poker online.
It got to the point where i'd never finish a session up or down, just hovering about the same - I was pretty much just relying on my rakeback for profits during the last month or so!

It basically comes down to one reason - the pace of the game at PKR is so slow, that hands need to get spiced up a little in order to generate more rake. Call me an idiot, but I know what's fair and what isn't...and PKR definately falls in the latter category.
And people might think i'm bitter because I lost at the site or something - when in reality I turned a $20 deposit into $3500 in four months...then left.

I dont agree with this.

I actually get more flushes on ongame and pokerstars than PKR. I stopped my happit of all-in on flushdraws because of this when playing PKR. But i have a hunch that straights in the high end occurs slightly more often

I have actually backtracked from my original post a little. I've been back at PKR for around a month now and in that time I have come to realise that there are a lot of bad players there and they contribute to it all.

I have seen players call big raises with 6-2 just because they were suited. I have seen players raise UTG with 9-4 just because they were suited. I have seen a lot of players play any two cards just because they are suited.

Obviously, these players are going to get lucky now and again and when they win a decent pot with a flush when they have 6-2, they think it's easy and keep doing it.

I actually did my own little test. I dropped down to the play money tables with the sole purpose of playing any 2 suited cards and seeing how many flushes I hit. I can tell you now, it wasn't many at all!

But at a 10 seater table it's highly possible that at least 3 players could have suited cards. Maybe differently suited so that when that lucky muppet hits his flush with 6-2, two other players have missed.

As for straights, it's a similiar story but not as bad. It's actaully easier to hit a straight than a flush (that's why flushes are higher ranked of course) and there are a few players who call with any 2 connectors, but the flush chasers are the kings and they far outnumber the straight chasers.

The good thing about straight chasers is they will pay you off. An example I had today was when I had a free flop from the BB with A-3 off suit. The board came down 2-3-5-7-4. By the river there were 3 of us left, mainly because we were all checking. Naturally my big concern was the 6. Being first to act, I checked to see what action would follow and I was perfectly happy to check it down because it wasn't a big pot at all. Well, player number 2 just pushed all-in, the next guy called and I folded. I folded a straight. I expected both of them to have a 6, but not so. One guy turned over 6-7 (an example of a straight chaser here. It was 6-7 off suit and he limped from early position), the other guy showed A-10. So we all hit the straight on the river, but the other guy with the lower straight just couldn't let go and he paid the price.

So now I think it's the players rather than the software

I still think there is something wrong. I have noticed in my time on PKR too many same suit flops and too many 3 card straights for it to even come close to reality. Combined with the fact you have to wait at least an hour on average to fill a SnG table over $20 to be able to play at a decent standard, it just goes to make PKR games as interesting as playing Bingo.
PKR has been running a while now and it does not seem to generate enough players of a decent standard.
For a bit of fun PKR has its place, but for people who want a serious game you have to look elsewhere.

Not saying it's rigged, but the RnG is obviously overkilling the shuffle to the point of going full circle and not shuffling.

Some aspects yes. If I flop 2 pair on any other site I will always push my stack all in. It's annoying because I play it like a pussy here - 9 times out of 10 someone has or will hit their straight.
I was 2 buyins up on one table last night, I flopped 2 pair and got reraised x25 by another player with a huge stack on a straight drawn board. I just called and my FH hit the turn, and of course they just checked down the turn and folded to me river bet. I won a ~$60 pot, if i'd played it with my head it'd would have been ~$560. But I did that a few days ago and ended 4 buyins down.

Last night my AA got cracked by AKs too (87% in my favour PF). Guy flops a pair of Kings, bets pot. I Insta-push, he insta-calls and I lose to a runner runner nut flush.

What made me sick though was possibly the worst player i've EVER seen absolutely dominating the enitre table. If he'd lose a hand he'd go on tilt and start betting x50 ($50) PF. All anyone needed was Ax and they were in a very strong position to call or push. People were calling and his crap would hit miraculous rivers. 79o for example ended up being quad 9's. his 57o vs AKs and he flopped a straight.
He went from $100 to $400, lost it and got down to $120, then 20 minutes later he was upto $600. I recall him losing possibly 2 hands in a HU situation. He won around ~18, almost everytime completely dominated PF.

But it should be no aspects, should it not? If you use one system to randomise 52 numbers, then use another system to randomise an already randomised 52 numbers, then it must be unrandomising, musn't it?

If that makes sense ...

In my opinion if PKR used the same RnG as PStars I think there would be a huge difference. Yes there will always be people cursing flops turns & rivers but not about the same old 2 pair being done by a straight or flush as seems to be the case on PKR.

Lol, every time I hold Ax suited on Pokerstars, the flop comes also suited but allways another suit then the one I am holding. Probably not true, but it is a pattern I 'discovered' and since then, I see it happening much more often.
What I am trying to say is, if you start to notice a pattern on a site, you will focus on it and see it much more.

If you read in the newspaper about a certain type of car being the topseller last year, you suddenly a lot more of those cars on the road, just because you start to focus on it.

I think the reason why PKR shuffles twice, is because true randomness doesnt exist. No machine can provide you with 'real' random numbers because it allways needs some seed to derive the numbers from.
PKR uses the previous random shuffle as seed
Pokerstars uses 'user mouse movements' and 'thermal noise enthropy' as seed.
Full Tilt does a continuous shuffle and picks the card when you click the button. Clicking a microsecond later will give you another card, very frustrating if your opponent hits his one-outer.