Another What Would You Do Thread

[Dodgey101]

Just sat at the final table. I'm 4th in chips (24k, leader had 34k) - first hand played on final table (final table was the bubble - only 10 places paid)

1st to act goes all in with 27k. I'm 3 places further round with pocket Queens. There are some people left with 12-14k, most have around 20k.

I folded. I did this because the guy who went all-in was not a mad player - I'd played on a table with him for ages. He was pretty tight, though did a few well timed semi-bluffs.

I put him on Kings or Aces for such a bold move, particularly 1st to act on a table where he was covered. He was in no way short stacked, and the prize for 10th was only $11 so it's not like it was worth it.

I'd never seen him push with unpaired premiums like AK.

I also figured why get into a mad race when I could easily get 6th or 7th sitting tight if I got crap cards from then on.

On the other hand it could have been a good opportunity to take a healthy chip lead (the blinds were 3k so we were ALL under a little pressure).

WHat do you think? I need to learn more in these situations. I'm making the money frequently in MTTs now and sometimes 1st 2nd but I feel I'm lacking in balls sometimes when it really counts. (I've noticed I do well in MTTs when I stick my neck out with a good hand when I am forced to commit most or all of my stack - in the past I'd avoid massive confrontations on races to preserve my chips for better odds - but doing that leaves you with crap chips going towards the final tables)

[Tigerrr]

Like u said, he wasn't a mad player, I guess you made the right desicion, I would do the same anyway.
And maybe it was a semi bluff, or the final table suddenly made him a mad player, now is the right time to find out!

GL

[KingBorgo]

Originally Posted by Dodgey101

I also figured why get into a mad race when I could easily get 6th or 7th sitting tight if I got crap cards from then on.

If this is your mindset playing MTTs, I would HIGHLY suggest stopping playing them. Playing with this mindset will lead to being an overall losing player in MTTs.

[monkier]

Agreed. The only way to get +ev from MTTs is to go for the win everytime. The prize variations are so great between 1st and the others that playing to win is the only way you will become a winning mtt player. With that in mind i would probably push here myself. You said the blinds were 3K so with only 24K your M is only just over 5. Basically its pushing time and you arn't going to get much better than QQ with so little in chips. If this players range really is only AA or KK from UTG and your SURE of that then maybe a fold here is the correct play. However final tables change peoples ranges. I would put him on AA to 99 as well as high suited connecters and high aces.

In the majority of cases however i feel folding is the wrong move.

[Dodgey101]

I agree Borgo and I play for 1st, but when you've played for 3 hours, sat at the final table with a good stack (no one had a monster stack) and someone out of character pushes all in UTG without provocation is it a winning strategy to blindly call and blow 3 hours work on a pure coin flip? Surely it's better to pick a moment when you feel you have some knowledge? I was fairly certain he'd hit a monster. And sometimes, when your are not doing so well, it makes financial sense to to calculate moving up a few places in the money if it all goes wrong.. liek if you get totally carded - that's happened to me many a time - you know, 72, 95 etc - any move you make is going to get called unless you have a monster stack.

Monkier - the thing was Everyone's M was about 5 or 6! (I assume M= blinds to stack ratio):-p - does that mean we all have to push with the 1st hand we get? Maybe I guess it does actually. It was a very very slow game and the blinds were way out of proportion.

Looking back, based on the M factor, I should have called I guessed. Had I had 10-15 BBs then I would def be happy with the QQ fold.

(Incidentally I have been getting 2nd and 1sts in MTTs - it's the QQ fold I was most curious about because it was a laydown I really was 50/50 with)

[Dodgey101]

Hmm - let's talk about +ev! - this has got me thinking! - Recently I have been thinking about MTTS and the fact that unless you get 3rd or better they are a totally inneficient use of your time (massive GTD MTTS excluded - with like 100 places of good money). I play usually $11 at most on MTTs - usually $280 to $580 1st place prize depending on the turn out.

I nearly always make the bubble. That's 3 hours to break even!
I frequenly make a small prize - usually tripple - That's 3 hours for $20 profit

In SnGs I'm currently averaging about $30 per hour profit.

MTT - Bubble = $90 loss (could have played 3 SnGs)
MTT - Small prize = $70 Loss
SnG - 30$ per hour Profit.
MTT 2nd - Lets say $180 = $60/hour. = twice as good as SnG
MTT 1st - Lets say $450 = $150/hour = 5 x better than SNG

So from this I learn that

a) I should play for 1st or 2nd in MTTs regardless. And, and this is the important bit, make the moves/call the big ones early on to make good use of my time and take command, or if it fails, get in another game SnG
b) Stop playing MTTs with such crap payouts and bite the bullet and play higher stakes
c) Only play GTD MTTs with big overlays

Thoughts?

I have to say by the way, that a lot of this was stirred up last night when I sat after hour 2 and thought , "fuck! - 85 players, 2 hours and 50 players are still left, only 10 places are paid, and 3rd downwards it crap money - what a wast of my time" - And this was when I was clear chip leader!

[monkier]

Originally Posted by Dodgey101

Monkier - the thing was Everyone's M was about 5 or 6! (I assume M= blinds to stack ratio):-p - does that mean we all have to push with the 1st hand we get? Maybe I guess it does actually. It was a very very slow game and the blinds were way out of proportion.

Your right M = blind to stack ratio and your also right that in this situation you pretty much have to push with a decent hand to be getting any fold equity. With that in mind a call here could still work out in your favour. Everyone knows that its push or fold time so any pair starts to look good. With the blind to stack ratio being what it is you have to assume that peoples starting hand ranges will open up, even from UTG. I really don't think i could get away from QQ here. If he did have AA or KK then thats unlucky. Only AK puts you in a coinflip and your beating/dominating everything else.

[monkier]

Originally Posted by Dodgey101

Hmm - let's talk about +ev! - this has got me thinking! - Recently I have been thinking about MTTS and the fact that unless you get 3rd or better they are a totally inneficient use of your time (massive GTD MTTS excluded - with like 100 places of good money). I play usually $11 at most on MTTs - usually $280 to $580 1st place prize depending on the turn out.

I nearly always make the bubble. That's 3 hours to break even!
I frequenly make a small prize - usually tripple - That's 3 hours for $20 profit

In SnGs I'm currently averaging about $30 per hour profit.

MTT - Bubble = $90 loss (could have played 3 SnGs)
MTT - Small prize = $70 Loss
SnG - 30$ per hour Profit.
MTT 2nd - Lets say $180 = $60/hour. = twice as good as SnG
MTT 1st - Lets say $450 = $150/hour = 5 x better than SNG

So from this I learn that

a) I should play for 1st or 2nd in MTTs regardless. And, and this is the important bit, make the moves/call the big ones early on to make good use of my time and take command, or if it fails, get in another game SnG
b) Stop playing MTTs with such crap payouts and bite the bullet and play higher stakes
c) Only play GTD MTTs with big overlays

Thoughts?

I have to say by the way, that a lot of this was stirred up last night when I sat after hour 2 and thought , "fuck! - 85 players, 2 hours and 50 players are still left, only 10 places are paid, and 3rd downwards it crap money - what a wast of my time" - And this was when I was clear chip leader!

This is pretty much spot on. There isn't a lot of +ev in MTTs and as a result i tend to only play them for fun.

[Dodgey101]

Thanks for the feedback - Interestingly I have now realised that when I sat at the final table I did not take into account that people would lower their hand requirements because they were all in the same boat as me! - I was foolishly just thinking about me and not everyone else. Additionally The all in right off the bat totally caught me off guard.

I've just read an interesting MTT strategy guide. After reading it it has confirmed what I suspected - I don't look for tight players and blind steal anywhere near enough (I'm always getting mine stolen!), plus a few other glaring faults. Too passive I am! I'm waiting for hands to come from me instead of playing the players (of course I do play them here and there but only when a player makes his weakness obvious!)

btw - it's not really about the money - I don't play poker to earn - of course I watch the profits - it's a personal challenge. But I MUST play MTTs because my overall goal is to one day win a big one, like 1000's or 10,000$ :-) - my SnG games fund my MTTs.

More interestingly, reading about bankrolls, I don't think mine is big enough for high stake MTTs! - One guy said be loses 10 to 20 MTTs before he wins one and for that reason, you need a much bigger bankroll for proper MTT play.

[Assistanc3]

Surely it's better to pick a moment when you feel you have some knowledge? I was fairly certain he'd hit a monster. And sometimes, when your are not doing so well, it makes financial sense to to calculate moving up a few places in the money if it all goes wrong.

See, sometimes people just factor in the cards, the players, the pot odds etc

but when your goal is to win money, and to do that is by placing higher in tournaments,
then with the info you have "read" on the UTG player, I think its a safe fold.

You can't win the tournament, even if u win that hand
the only thing you could do, was assure yourself of not winning it if u lost.

And if your being as consistent as you say you are at cashing out, 1st and 2nds then we are in no position to say your playing wrong. Obviously you are doing something right.

Huge difference in your game now then back in July?
you recall when you were about to "give up" ?

on a side note, I don't agree with the M ratio with a low buy in
people are gonna push with anything and everything, and with more shorter stacks behind you,
they were all wanting you to call, why do them a favor?