Well the $10 didnt end kindly!!

Firstly, what happened - but then on to some real questions!

I raised with UTG with AQo (2x blind)
All Fold
The BB raises me all in.

I think - and here are my thoughts:

In the last 10 or so hands I had had to fold without a showdown 4 times (22,AQ,KQ and K10) - as each hit the wrong flop and was bet on. Another key element was that we were on the bubble.

So with all that in mind, and the previous hands I had seen him play, I put the guy on a steal, with at best - Ax, which will also probably have covered.

I figure he thinks I will never call him - and hence does not want the call.

I call, he shows 5,6.

You can guess what was on the river!

I finished 21, 20 places paid.

So after some prevoking comments from Rosso we have the following to discuss:

1) 2x blind raise from UTG, which I did to protect a hand with potential - about 1/5 of my stack. (AQo)

I decided that limping just looked to weak - right or wrong ?

2) The All-In call -

I could have stayed out of the pot - but would that be 'weak' play ?

Where do I have better +EV looking to double up like that and finish deeper, or do I just avoid fights near the bubble when I have 'enough' chips ?

3) I am very aware (my big crusade atm) of my poor finishing deep in tournys,

I was starting to think that I was playing too weak near the bubble - and had determined to do otherwise. To illustrate this point , my recent tourny finishes are 7\500, 14\500, 21\500, 18\500, 29\500, 15\500, 22\500, 8\500, 16\500 and 16\500 - events range from the 10K downwards, and actual numbers from 170+ runners!

I cant help but think with that spread I should be seeing some more final tables and better pay-offs, hence logically, I am missing somthing in my game at the real sharp end. The more you can pick holes im my play the more likely you are to find it!

Discuss! - and thanks to anyone that replies.

Mizpah

PS: Rosso, do you have the hand, its not in my log for some reason! (in case I have any of this wrong)

can you post your hand history? i wasn't sure you raised UTG.

that close to the bubble with the amount of chips you had i woulda folded with AQ off UTG.

i wasn't paying super attention but i thought you just called his all in, didn't see you make the initial raise obviously.

still i'd like to see the hand history.

after reading your thoughts, id say if you wanted to make a move up the ladder around bubble stage, the UTG raise was very weak only 2x, hence why the other guy made the move he did.

good read to think he was stealing but im sure he thought you were also.

perhaps a bigger UTG raise would have made him think otherwise, but i still think at that stage, with your chips and 1 place to go folding preflop was the best decision.

i found it for ya

Table #1619689 - Tournament #1007245 Table #14
Starting Hand #81412037
Last Hand #81411349
Game Type: Hold'em
Limit Type: No Limit
Table Type: Tournament
Money Type: TOURNAMENT CHIPS
Blinds are now $1000/$2000
Button is at seat 5
Seat 1: SandScarab - $6973.28
Seat 2: drewski - $8260
Seat 3: Lindylo0 - $34581.78
Seat 6: Fjompen - $13060
Seat 7: Googler - $3027.45
Seat 8: topplumb - $12476.66
Seat 9: Mizpah - $12960
Seat 10: rosso87 - $34299.15
Moving Button to seat 6
Googler posts small blind ($1000)
topplumb posts big blind ($2000)
Shuffling Deck
Dealing Cards
Dealing [7c 4c] to rosso87
Mizpah raises to $4000
rosso87 folds
SandScarab folds
drewski folds
Lindylo0 folds
Fjompen folds
Googler folds
topplumb raises to $12476.66 (all-in)
Mizpah: lets see what happens...
Mizpah calls $12476.66
topplumb shows [5h 6s]
Mizpah shows [Qd Ah]
Dealing Flop [7s 3d 8s]
Dealing Turn [Tc]
Dealing River [9c]
topplumb has Straight, 10 high
topplumb wins $25953.32 with: Straight, 10 high
rosso87: lol
Seat 1: SandScarab - $6973.28
Seat 2: drewski - $8260
Seat 3: Lindylo0 - $34581.78
Seat 6: Fjompen - $13060
Seat 7: Googler - $2027.45
Seat 8: topplumb - $25953.32
Seat 9: Mizpah - $483.34
Seat 10: rosso87 - $34299.15
End Of Hand #81412037


after reviewing that, it seems to me the mistake you made other then not just folding preflop :P was the small raise UTG.

that said, there was 7k in the pot after he raised you, woulda been tough to fold after his raise.

found it! it was fter midnight, so it was a different date!

Game Type: Hold'em
Limit Type: No Limit
Table Type: Tournament
Money Type: TOURNAMENT CHIPS
Blinds are now $1000/$2000
Button is at seat 5
Seat 1: SandScarab - $6973.28
Seat 2: drewski - $8260
Seat 3: Lindylo0 - $34581.78
Seat 6: Fjompen - $13060
Seat 7: Googler - $3027.45
Seat 8: topplumb - $12476.66
Seat 9: Mizpah - $12960
Seat 10: rosso87 - $34299.15
Moving Button to seat 6
Googler posts small blind ($1000)
topplumb posts big blind ($2000)
Shuffling Deck
Dealing Cards
Dealing [Qd Ah] to Mizpah
Mizpah raises to $4000
rosso87 folds
SandScarab folds
drewski folds
Lindylo0 folds
Fjompen folds
Googler folds
topplumb raises to $12476.66 (all-in)
Mizpah: lets see what happens...
Mizpah calls $12476.66
topplumb shows [5h 6s]
Mizpah shows [Qd Ah]
Dealing Flop [7s 3d 8s]
Dealing Turn [Tc]
Dealing River [9c]
topplumb has Straight, 10 high
topplumb wins $25953.32 with: Straight, 10 high
rosso87: lol
Seat 1: SandScarab - $6973.28
Seat 2: drewski - $8260
Seat 3: Lindylo0 - $34581.78
Seat 6: Fjompen - $13060
Seat 7: Googler - $2027.45
Seat 8: topplumb - $25953.32
Seat 9: Mizpah - $483.34
Seat 10: rosso87 - $34299.15
End Of Hand #81412037

we crossed posts - and yeah the pot was temptin, I was on 23k a few hands before but kept having to make laydowns.

I think it probably should of been a fold, but with 2k blinds, I had 3 circuits to find a better spot.

The big issue is not this one hand - but how I try to get a little deeper in these tournies! Thanks for the insight!

yeah i understand that, and i think if you made a raise of say 8k, you woulda won the pot.

i suggest you play real tight right after the bubble, treat it as though you just started playing, then gradually pick spots to steal blinds (with a decent hand). From experience i have learned that an all in preflop is a lot scarier than a raise. Therefore if you hold a good hand try pushing all your chips in the middle, therefore putting the pressure on others. If you are gonna raise then raise atleast 5x the BB, this kind of raise scares others a lot. The point is that if you let someone see the flop, then you lose a lot of edge (or gain) since there is open information, whereas preflop you tend to force others to give you the benefit of the dought, and they would be more willing to lay down their hands bc they havent invested anything in the hand. As soon as someone invests in seeing a flop, then they are less willing to lay down their hands. But my best advice would be to fold a lot of hands in this stage of the tourny...simply bc money starts doubling after 10 players are left, and also bc its the safer option. Soome experts say you should exploit this situation and make big steals....the problem is getting caught doing this against a better hand....you will lose so much!

at the late stage of a tourny position play and starting hands become ever more crucial...it is now that you need to make a difference, so i would reccomend folding A-x, 10 J, even KQ out of position with raisers ahead of you. Personally I give myself "motivation" by folding such hands in early position, late position is a different story. I made a huge mistake of folding K8 suited in late position with one raiser and a caller; flop came 8 K 8, turn K.....I saw my money go to some idiot with A J off suit....this stage of the game is so much more psychological, and hence giving yourself any kind of psychological edge can be very rewarding. By this i mean playing by the book, and calling or raising in late position with medium hands.

A different strategy would be to start playing slow ball, since blinds are so high, it is the best time to start picking them up just by making multiple small bets in order to win one big hand. Personally I find that playing hands like 9 10 suited are great for slow ball, suited connecters have good odds, and middle suited connecters have the most chance statistically of hitting (56, 78, 8 10, 910 etc). good luck!

Seriously? Folding one of the 5 best hands in holdem preflop just because your near the bubble? Thats a seriously weak play. I think you played this hand fine you were just unlucky to lose to an inferior hand. When playing MTTs you HAVE to go for the win to see any sort of +EV. The only possible thing you could have done differently was to shove pre-flop, the problem with this strategy is your only going to get called by better hands (well most of the time if your opponents know what their doing). Infact now that i look at your chip counts in this situation an open shove from UTG is probably the best play. The blinds are going to get pretty agressive from here on out compared to your chip count. You can't afford to pass monsters like AQ in this situation.

Shove em in and hope no on has QQ+ or AK.

My thoughts (and I've got some 1st's recently and previously was only getting to the final table at best)

a) Regarding your decision to call - I'm with you on this one. Your raise was not weak in as much as it was 1/4 of your stack. Any more and you might as well push all in. I'm not a fan of that UTG - so much could be out there. Any pair basically.

My opinion above is based on several things. Firstly if you want to come 1st you simply HAVE to take some risks and make some moves at the 20 player mark. There is just no point whatsoever going into the post bubble / final table short stacked. All you can do is wait for a great hand and if that doesn't happen you are forced to push with average cards as the blinds and antes kill you.

I would have thought and done the same. On the bubble,it looks very much like he's trying to steal abusing bubble-fear. You were correct - he had 56. You just got unlucky. Had you got what you deserved, you'd have entered the money with twice as many chips and a very good position to contend with the rest.

IF - you are shooting for making the money as a main priority (which only makes sense in a high buy-in / large payout to all places game) - then folding the AQ would make more sense. Why risk it all when you and I both know a little patience and you'd be cashing.

And that's the important bit - do you want to place in the money anywhere, or take a top 3 place? If the answer is the latter, and you were not in a string chip position, then you'd be mad not to call based on your observations. It's your ticket to winning big.

So to answer your two questions

1) 2x BB is kinda weak, but it was 1/4 of your stack. Any more and I'd be saying you might as well go all-in. a 2xBB bet at this stage of the game is a lot of chips - you had one guy covered and another by 50%. Not exactly a small raise.

2) I think this was your perfect chance to get a deep finish.

3) Looking at your finishes reminds me of my game! - an I kept finishing in the crap money because I was not taking enough risks. As soon as I bit the bullet and took a few risks I found myself with a hugh stack and I could relax.


I guess what I'm trying to say, is regardless of the specific call, I think you made the right move - I mean you only had 6xBB left! And you had AQ, And it was on the bubble, and you made the right read.

You'll see a post of mine elsewhere asking if it's normal to take some big risks to be able to win. I had exactly the same thought process.

The change for me now is I blow out early, before the bubble, or I do very well. No more low prizes. They way I'm playing now means that doesn't happen. If I finish just in the bubble it means I clawed my way to get there. I'm not clawing any more, I'm leaping, and sometimes you get in the bubble loaded with chips, sometimes you leap into a hole! :-p

Just read some of the other replies.

JamJardie - I disagree on a few points

- You can't afford to play super tight at this stage of the game - you've only got 6 BBs left, you need to move fast-ish
- how can you steal blinds with good cards? That's not blind stealing as far as I understand.
- lastly, how can you play small-ball with only 6 bets in you?

Not being funny - just doesn't make sense to me.