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Old 06-04-2007, 11:09 PM
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Default Damn, I need discipline

There is a stupid little voice in my head that keeps nagging at me sometimes and I make the wrong decision.

I was just playing in 0.25/0.50 cash game for about 1.5 hours. I was fairly card dead, managed to pick up a hand here and there to keep me ticking over. I was about $5 down, $45 sat in front of me when I am dealt AA. I raise it up to $2.50 and get one caller.

The flop comes down K-9-3 rainbow. I'm first to act, there is only $5.50 in the pot, so I lead out and bet $4. The other guy has about $35 in front of him and raises all-in.

Now this is where I have my problem. I should fold here. All the signs are there. This guy is virtually telling me what he has. He's not on any draw. At best he could have a gut shot. So, he's either got trips or K-9. I doubt he would call with K-3. Then this stupid little voice in my head says "No, he's bluffing. He's trying to push you off the pot. Call ... CALL!" ... So, I am fairly certain I am beat, but he might, just might be bluffing. All the time that little white bar is running out. Finally, I call. He turns over 9-9. He has trips. No miracle ace to save me.

Now, this isn't a moan about PKR. I am angry with myself for this play. This is definitely a weak area in my game and something I am trying to conquer.

The problem is I think people are bluffing most of the time. I realise bluffs happen, but I am also realising that bluffs are not as common as I first thought. I often call what I think are bluffs only to see monsters turned over.

the worst part is, I am fairly sure I am beat most of the time, but call anyway. I need to get better discipline in this area and learn to accept I am beat. hehe
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Old 06-05-2007, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
The problem is I think people are bluffing most of the time. I realise bluffs happen, but I am also realising that bluffs are not as common as I first thought. I often call what I think are bluffs only to see monsters turned over.

the worst part is, I am fairly sure I am beat most of the time, but call anyway. I need to get better discipline in this area and learn to accept I am beat. hehe
You don't see as much bluffing online as you do in live poker. When you play live you can learn a players tells. Online the only tells are the time it takes the player to make his play. And the multiple of the bet. These can be giveaways as to what they have if they're inexperienced. A good player will mix it up.

If you think you're beat then fold. Even the rockets.
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Old 06-05-2007, 01:55 AM
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God damn it, I hate aces. Just had them cracked again.

I raise, 2 callers this time.

Flop is K-J-x

I bet, one raises all-in, one folds. This time it's only $10 to call though. So I go through it all again before once again calling. Of course, she has K-J.

I earlier bust out of a tourney because, once again, I didn't believe them.

I had K-J suited in the BB. 4 limpers with the blinds at 100/200 meant a nice 1000 pot. Flop is K-Q-x. I bet out 400 and get raised. The rest fold. Now here, I should fold or at best call. She has more than double my stack. I am just under average stacked, so not in bad shape and she is obviously not scared of that King. But this damn little voice says "She's bluffing. Push back and she'll fold". So I re-raise all-in and she calls. She had limped with AK suited. To make it worse, two of her suits were on the flop. So she had top pair, top kicker and nut flush draw. She was going nowhere. lol.

Again, I was angry at myself. I didn't need to make that play. Sometimes, I could slap myself. lol
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Old 06-05-2007, 08:38 AM
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I like folding. I'm really getting to like it more each day. I'm sure pride messes with your head in this game. I'm certainly finding online that if you put someone on a hand post flop, you are more often right than wrong.

It's tough as hell folding pairs, especially royals, but i've done it quite a bit recently and almost every time I'm glad I did when I see the rest of the cards. :-p
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Old 06-05-2007, 12:00 PM
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I think you got it in a nutshell when you say it's pride. It's hard to think that you have been bluffed off a pot.

I do need to learn to fold more often I think. I'm getting there, slowly. hehe
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Old 06-05-2007, 12:14 PM
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Someone once said 'Poker is not about the chips you win, its about the chips you don't lose'.

Can't remember who it was though...



...



...oh thats right, it was Doyle Brunson
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:15 AM
jamrockyardi jamrockyardi is offline
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On the topic of discipline and folding....I think Doyles mentality is essential if you want to be a winning poker player. I realise myself that i do best in poker when I am sober, focused and more importantly patient and held back. When I want to win badly and cant wait to play a hand i usually end up losing early on. recently i have been playing a lot of MTTs and have done pretty well, thanks to my ability to fold hands like A 10 under the gun and A-x out of position.

True form you mention that you didnt know what to do with AA when the flop was K 9 3 rainbow...you raised preflop and did the right thing! the guy calling you had much more money and was willing to gamble with his 99 knowing that you couldnt take that much from him. This was a case of bad luck...I would most certainly push with AA if is saw that flop. There are situations where its better to lay down the bullets, for instance when the flop is all diamonds and you have none...or when there is a one card missing straight on the flop etc.

Discipline is when you fold knowing your beat and have bad odds to call a big raise...a classic example is raising preflop with KK getting one caller and an ace falls on the flop...very tricky situation, your best option is to check then evaluate the size of your opponents bet on the strength of his hand. another option is to make an evaluation bet to see where you stand...if you get flat called then check to the river if he gives you that option, if he goes in for the kill on the river then fold...most players will not check if they have an ace, since they are afraid you may have a better ace and therefore want to see where they stand.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:38 AM
TheSavage TheSavage is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamrockyardi View Post
On the topic of discipline and folding....I think Doyles mentality is essential if you want to be a winning poker player. I realise myself that i do best in poker when I am sober, focused and more importantly patient and held back. When I want to win badly and cant wait to play a hand i usually end up losing early on. recently i have been playing a lot of MTTs and have done pretty well, thanks to my ability to fold hands like A 10 under the gun and A-x out of position.

True form you mention that you didnt know what to do with AA when the flop was K 9 3 rainbow...you raised preflop and did the right thing! the guy calling you had much more money and was willing to gamble with his 99 knowing that you couldnt take that much from him. This was a case of bad luck...I would most certainly push with AA if is saw that flop. There are situations where its better to lay down the bullets, for instance when the flop is all diamonds and you have none...or when there is a one card missing straight on the flop etc.

Discipline is when you fold knowing your beat and have bad odds to call a big raise...a classic example is raising preflop with KK getting one caller and an ace falls on the flop...very tricky situation, your best option is to check then evaluate the size of your opponents bet on the strength of his hand. another option is to make an evaluation bet to see where you stand...if you get flat called then check to the river if he gives you that option, if he goes in for the kill on the river then fold...most players will not check if they have an ace, since they are afraid you may have a better ace and therefore want to see where they stand.

your best option is to check then evaluate the size of your opponents bet on the strength of his hand.

no, no, no, no, no, no.

NO!

(the below eval is based upon your std player)

hehe, never ever check your kings if the ace falls on the flop..a player will bet if you check to him if he has an ace or not then you don't know where you stand.. and will either..1. fold the best hand. 2. end up losing the maximum amount.

Normally put in a 3/4 to pot sized bet and see what the player does…if you get raised you're probably beat (You raised pre-flop, indicating strength, then an ace came on the flop and you bet out a sizable sum again) what’s he going to be calling or raising with?

He didn't re-raise pre-flop so you can rule out AA, if he re-raises your pot sized bet on the flop he most likely has AK, AQ, AJ(getting looser), if he flat calls he may be on a drawing hand or have an a-rag and be playing a loose game.

If he calls the flop, I would normally fire again on the turn, if he smooth calls again and its not a station I would normally give up my kings and put him on a monster trapping me or an ace - rag which is beating me anyway.

However, like most things it depends on the context of the flop, if you have K K and the board comes Ah Js 8h and he smoth calls you he could be playing K Q/ K J, K 10 suited and be on some kind of draw.. so if the turn comes 4d I would fire again confident he would fold. Most players (online) give up if they don't hit the draw on the turn, and you firing again would convince him you had an ace…so if he calls again and is a well verse player you can be pretty sure you're beat.

If he's a super loose mega donk…then…well he could have 78 off suit or A J and have 2 pair.. that’s the hard part about playing the mega donks.

Anyway I am rambling but to sum up.. NEVER EVER check your kings when an ace come son the flop…because you can save a lot of money if you know where you are rather than being in the dark.
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Old 11-30-2007, 12:19 PM
jamrockyardi jamrockyardi is offline
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granted, and point taken, its important toknow where you are. However, betting 3/4 the pot often means you have to give up more than half your stack with a preflop raise 5 x the BB....hence in your scenario you would be losing more money than just checking the option to your opponent. If your opponent does have the ACe then your screwed either way, remember he called your raise hoping to hit an ace if he has one regardless if it has a rag kicker...he will probably be prepared and commited to go all in on that pair alone...if he doesnt have the ACE, he will most probably be very happy with your check and check to see another card. Advanced players will most def bet on a draw or even wager a bluff, however given the circumstances of your preflop raise, i dought anyone will dare bet into you if they dont have an ace....checking allows you to evaluate without losing any more chips...the key would be to analyze their next move, how high is the bet, and ofcourse what kind of a player it is (tight/ lose/aggressive etc). that is my personal opinion, in general i am not an aggressive player (sometimes can be very aggressive), but would be willing to lay down KK in the face of an ace...
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:05 PM
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P1R447 P1R447 is offline
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that's why i always say im more happy with A/K suited or any suited connector.
Like doyle says in supersystem: you either win a small pot with aces or lose alot.
What he means is if the flop comes K high it's ''almost'' impossible to fold aces.
Its almost impossible to fold aces on any flop in general.
I dont hate m, but i dont like m either.
K/J/x flop is always trouble with aces and the K/9/3 rainbow flop looks good but with his reraise he is not giving you the odds to call. 35$ to call for a 9$ pot, i would fold...
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